Born into Dubs: Donnie Prater’s Alabama Dublife Tales Ep28

WEBVTT

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Music.

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To learn more about this class-leading VW magazine.

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A quick shout out to the boys over at Tannehill Volksjam over in McCullough,

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Alabama. I hope you guys are banging this episode.

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Hope you guys are having a great time. I'll see y'all soon.

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All right, welcome back to Dub Life Diaries.

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I am joined today by somebody who literally grew up in a Volkswagen.

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And I'm not talking about figuratively.

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I'm talking about a tie-dye onesie when he was born.

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Bus engines on the kitchen table. Learning brake jobs before most kids learned how to ride a bike.

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He's part of a VW legacy. He's the son of Todd Prater.

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Episode 23, Donnie's a guy who turned a childhood curiosity into a full-blown obsession.

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We're diving into what it looks like literally to grow up in this culture.

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His first builds, his favorite shows, the heartbreak of blown engines,

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some crazy stories, some crazy lessons along the way.

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Guys, buckle up. This one's going to feel like cruising in a split window bus

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straight down memory lane.

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Dottie Prater, welcome to Dub Life Diaries.

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Thank you for having me. I'm real happy to be back.

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I didn't mean to interrupt the first, my dad's episode. I would just want to

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really, I, I wanted to do one with you on my own and I wanted to listen and

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just kind of understand the gist of it.

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Well, like I said that day, you know, that day I said, I'm so glad you opened

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your mouth, you know, because man, you're a very wise young man.

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You know, these cars inside and out.

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You certainly, I'm happy to have you on and give you your own,

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your own episode, your own show.

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But yeah, I was actually going to tell that, that story before we get going

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though, let me do this. Let me thank my sponsors real quick,

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and then we'll jump right back into the story on how we met.

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But this podcast, sponsored by Volk's Mania Magazine, make sure you check these

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guys out. I say it, they are the best.

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VW Magazine, right now out there today in print, the quality.

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But here's what's most important. It's the people, right, behind it.

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Just like this, just like, you know, what we do, meeting each other and having

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a podcast like this, we can celebrate the Volkswagen culture.

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Volksmania Magazine, the people behind it that run it are just great folks.

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They're all about this scene.

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They even give me an opportunity to have a feature inside that magazine every

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issue and talk about the guests that come on this podcast. Man,

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how cool of them to do that. That is awesome.

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Yeah, I agree. So check those guys out for sure. Volksmania.com. Use Dublife10.com.

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D-U-B-L-I-F-E, the number one, the number zero at checkout. That is U.S.

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Subscribers only. You'll get 10% off your subscription.

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Also, this episode, also sponsored by Salty Dub from the beach to the bay.

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Salty Dub is all things VW events and swag.

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Make sure you check those guys out as well. They got all kinds of cool stuff on the website.

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Some hats, some sunglasses, all Dub related.

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Again, www.saltydub.com Use

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Dublife10 D-U-B-L-I-F-E Again, 1-0 This is only going to work for merch.

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Salty Dub also does events And things like that And this discount will not work

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on events Only it will work for the merch Alright,

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back to you, my brother Back to you So real quick, let me jump in I want to

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tell the story about how we met As I mentioned just a moment ago The son of

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Todd Prater who was, look this guy up, episode 23,

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told some amazing stories of a lifetime in this culture.

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In the beginning of the podcast, we were, you know, again, just kind of going

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back and forth with dialogue.

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And Todd says, well, you know, I got my son next to me and he can tell you.

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And you'll hear it on the podcast if you listen to it where Donnie comes in.

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Well, man, when Donnie started talking, I just, I lit up. And I'm sure if there

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was a video for it, you could see I was smiling just completely tight in my

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face because Donnie knows his shit.

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And I was like, damn, this is like a young man that really is impressing the heck out of me.

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So, Donnie, we had to give you your own show. So, brother, welcome.

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That's the story on how we met. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate it, man.

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I'm really excited to be here. And when I first heard about your podcast,

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I was like, man, I'd love to do one on my own.

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I know I don't have the same Years of experience or what not But I think coming

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from the perspective Of literally.

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Born and raised inside of A 69 Westphalia,

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You know it's It would be an interesting perspective and I would like to do

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My own episode because I you know I still have My own stories too that I think

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Would be fun and I didn't mean To barge into that episode at least That's how I felt what I did but,

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You didn't I genuinely Was just sitting beside him just so I could overhear to see what the vibe is,

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how the podcast and the interview would work, so that way, when I applied,

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I would have an understanding.

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And the guy said, well, come here! And I was like, well, you know, okay...

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But, uh, I'm actually glad I did. It was real fun. Me too. Happy to have you

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then. Happy to have you now.

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So tell me about the tie-dye onesie. Were you really born, you know,

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and when you came home, your dad put you in a onesie that said future VW driver on it?

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No, I didn't come home and he put it on. He put it on like five minutes after

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I was born in the hospital.

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Yeah. Okay. That's what I'm saying. So

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you literally born into this yeah literally

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quite literally so so for

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the for the listeners that don't know your dad that that

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might not know you or where you're from or really anything about you know the

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prater family just tell me a little bit about you where you're from you know

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what you do and and just just give the listeners a little bit about who you

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are well we're the crazy praters you know everyone that knows us knows we're

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the crazy people with all the old cars,

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and originally from central Alabama, Jefferson, Shelby County area.

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That's where I grew up for the first half of my life.

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And then 2013, it was, yeah, dad moved to Dallas County in Selma for a radio job.

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And now he's doing a news reporting for a local newspaper.

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That's where a lot of it really took off. It's just because we've been here the longest.

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And also it was the first time we had a bigger piece of property.

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To work with and we were a little closer to our uh

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shop with all of our cars and parts and whatnot that we talked about previously

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and so we were able to go up there and do stuff or grab whatever we need and

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come you know so my whole life there's been volkswagons and not just volkswagons

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i'm not just a volkswagen stop i love anything old and cool that makes cool noises.

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I mean i equally grew up in a 69 f100 three speed on the column inline six that's

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That's what I learned to drive manual in,

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was that truck and the bus.

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And unfortunately, that truck's no longer around. It got totaled in a car accident.

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But we have another one, just like it.

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A 68 model that we're fixing up.

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I have an old diesel Mercedes sitting right over here beside me. That was my first car.

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79 Mercedes, 300D, five-cylinder diesel.

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Awesome little car. Slow, slow old beast. Oh, my God. Yeah. 77 horsepower total.

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Max horsepower, 77. Now it's, and it weighs about 3,800 pounds.

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You step on the gas in that thing and it, it, it displays an icon on the dash that says loading.

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Yeah, exactly. I genuinely think a 36 horse barn door bus or like a bus,

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a 36 horse bus would outperform that Mercedes.

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Or at least it would be a neck and neck race, you know? Like two turtles taken off at the. Exactly.

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But, uh, man, I love that car. It was. give me some of your first memories of

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being around these cars as a as a as a young baby you know i know you're you

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can't remember all the way back to you know but give me some of your first memories

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probably i'll go a little for even though it's not a memory but i do know.

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That the vehicle i came home from the hospital in was a 88 fox we still have

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it i hope hopefully get it running soon and then i i don't remember it but it's

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one of those things where you kind of you associate other people's memories

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and you kind of make up an image in your head.

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But let's see earliest vw memory would probably would be the bus i would say

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actually no it would be our 65 beetle okay back when it was still running you'll

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hear that theme a lot back when it was still running.

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I remember dad had put a clutch in it, I think.

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And I was standing in our house in Shelby County looking out the window and

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he had just put the engine back in.

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Him and some buddies, I think. And I was watching through the window.

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He told me, go back inside. I don't want you to get hurt.

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And I remember hearing the bug fire up and him driving it in a circle in the

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driveway with no deck lid on it.

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Just testing, make sure all the clutch adjustment It was fine.

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And then they put it back on and he drove it to work the next morning.

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And next memory would probably be him probably around or so later.

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How old were you? I would have been probably about four or five.

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Amazing. Yeah. I remember him coming back from work in that same beetle, not too much after.

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Probably about a week later or something like that, you know.

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So actually my earliest memory is of that 65 Beetle.

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And then working on the bus, I remember doing some engine transplants in the

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bus at that point too. That would be my earliest.

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What did growing up in an environment like that, you know, what did it teach you?

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Not just about cars. What did it teach you about life?

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Probably patience more than anything.

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It'll test, you know, cars will test you. You test the cars, cars test you.

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And also taught me a lot of cuss words from dad.

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Awesome. At times, right?

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At times. There was one time on drum breaks that dad, the spring,

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he was using a screwdriver, the spring slipped and hit him on the arm,

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and he got so mad, he threw the screwdriver across the yard, and I ran inside.

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I was scared to hell, man.

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And he came inside going, where'd you go? I was like, I was scared.

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And he goes, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

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But I think I heard more than I think I pretty much had a whole dictionary of words after that one.

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I don't doubt that. Now, I know in part of your past, something that you've

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described is standing up in these Beatles or in these buses pretending to drive.

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You can go back to those times. Can you envision or do you remember being in

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that position where you're a child? So what's a baby like that thinking?

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Are you envisioning driving?

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What are you thinking? Yeah, well, it was more of...

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Mimicking what I saw, you know, cause that's what we drove all the time.

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It was, you know, if me, if I went anywhere with dad, we were in the bus, it was always the bus.

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So it was more like wanting to be like daddy, you know, and driving the bus.

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And so I would sit there and pretend I was driving anywhere and everywhere.

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How much of your childhood was, I'm not going to say flooded,

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But how much of it was VW stuff?

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I know you say there's other things, but you obviously got bit by the VW bug very early.

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No, flooded is definitely a good word for that. Pretty much every living second

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of my life, Volkswagen was involved.

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Yeah, that's so crazy. You could say, maybe in passing.

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But like I would wake up When I was going to school I'd wake up at At that point

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it was 5 in the morning Because the bus got here at 6.30.

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And I was around the same time Dad would be going to work And I would hear the

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My first memory every time waking up Was hearing the bus start up And dad driving

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to work And then you know I get home,

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And only about an hour later It's the bus coming home from work You know always

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an air cool come driving off to work, back to work every single day.

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Wow. I mean, that's that that sound. You know what it is.

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I know what it is. That sound is ingrained in you now on the side that I can

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hear it from about two blocks away.

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I actually that's awesome, though.

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It was a Christmas parade that we were at out of nowhere. I just had I could smell it.

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I could smell the horse hair. And I looked at Dan and I go I smell a Volkswagen

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And he said yeah I do too About five minutes later Beautiful unrestored 70 Beetle drove right by,

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I could hear it and I could smell it. Amazing right there.

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Yeah. Now I know in your, in your childhood,

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you know, you started with this on, especially on the mechanical side by handing

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tools to your dad at, at what age were you when you were able to,

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to start, you know, maybe working on something yourself?

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Let me see. Let me think probably around, I was like, you know,

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seven, eight, nine, 10, you know, around in there, probably like eight or nine

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is when dad would, you know, he's like, okay, all right, do it.

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You know, he showed me how to do it on one side, you do it on this side.

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And then I would do it and he'd just go back, make sure I got everything tight enough. And that was it.

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That's crazy. Cause that's so young, but that's also so, so awesome.

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You know, was this, was this the first break job?

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Yes. That was probably the very first time I did any actual work.

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Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, so it was what was it?

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2000 or 01 or 99 or early 2000, Oldsmobile Intrigue.

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It was I remember it vividly.

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Kind of a dark metallic, that dark metallic GM green tan interior leather,

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super comfy car. It needed brake pads.

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Four corner disc brakes, so easy, you know, clamshell style calipers where you

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undo the bolts and it just slips right off.

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I was actually four years old at that time, and I put in new pads on it.

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So how much of your knowledge base that you have now, though,

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is taught by dad versus self-taught or what you picked up out of manuals? I'll be honest.

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It just started with dad. He got more of the wrenching, you know,

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lefty-loosey, righty-tighty, how some of this stuff goes together.

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Mostly Volkswagen stuff, because that's all what we normally worked on at that point.

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But I always wanted to read into it more. And so it started with the manuals.

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I would look through them.

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And I love exploded diagrams. Those are always my favorite.

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And seeing how everything interconnects. And it's put together.

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And wiring diagrams, too. That was a bit later. But I would just sit there and

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follow the directions. And I would look at the photos and just picture it in

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my mind. And so I've told some people this.

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I think a part of big help is I can render a 3D object in my mind sometimes,

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you know, I can visually see it.

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It's like a computer animation almost see how it all connects.

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And so I would look at the photos and envision it all connecting together, you know.

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And so I guess I also just have the brain for it, but a lot of it was reading

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those manuals and the YouTube videos, Google searches, stuff like that, you know?

00:17:02.865 --> 00:17:07.505
Yeah. Well, probably majority of it. I would say that the bulk of it is going

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to be your gift and your brain. You know, all of us are different.

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I've watched a lot of YouTube and a lot of stuff on fixing stuff,

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brother. I still am a terrible mechanic.

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I still probably need to pay other people to do it right because it's just,

00:17:26.285 --> 00:17:27.645
it's just the way it goes.

00:17:27.825 --> 00:17:32.125
It's just not, it's not for everybody and it's okay. I'm, I'm okay with that.

00:17:32.325 --> 00:17:36.605
I don't need to be the best mechanic to, you know, enjoy these cars and this car.

00:17:37.445 --> 00:17:40.525
That's what's the beauty of them is that they're simple enough.

00:17:40.705 --> 00:17:44.205
Anyone can wrap their mind around it. Well, I got my mind wrapped around them.

00:17:44.305 --> 00:17:48.945
So yeah, I'll give you that, but I'm just not the best mechanic,

00:17:49.085 --> 00:17:52.125
dude. And that's perfectly okay. You don't have to be to enjoy it.

00:17:52.485 --> 00:17:56.365
Yeah, exactly. And I still like light stuff. You know, I understand brakes.

00:17:56.585 --> 00:17:59.525
I understand the concept of that. I understand all of it. Yeah,

00:17:59.685 --> 00:18:02.365
I mean, you could do it on your own. That's fine.

00:18:02.705 --> 00:18:07.045
I probably could, but I just don't want to.

00:18:07.605 --> 00:18:11.225
Right? You know what? I don't even have that issue a lot.

00:18:11.978 --> 00:18:16.438
I just don't want to. Like this Jetta behind me, I have to put a new fuel tank in it.

00:18:16.518 --> 00:18:21.098
And I haven't done it yet because I have to drop the whole rear suspension to do it. See?

00:18:21.598 --> 00:18:24.018
I just don't want to. I just don't want to either.

00:18:25.418 --> 00:18:30.738
It's like four or five volts to do it. But it's so cumbersome.

00:18:31.858 --> 00:18:35.498
For me, it's so easy for me to drop it off at a reputable source.

00:18:35.638 --> 00:18:38.398
Exactly. And say, here's what I need.

00:18:39.778 --> 00:18:42.958
And they say, okay, you pay me. Okay, done.

00:18:43.278 --> 00:18:47.118
I think part of what helped me is that we just were never able to afford that.

00:18:47.358 --> 00:18:50.038
It was, you know, you figure it out or you just go without it.

00:18:50.538 --> 00:18:56.518
Okay, fair enough. And on that, though, on that topic, have you ever messed

00:18:56.518 --> 00:19:00.958
something up bad enough where you thought, you know, your dad's going to be

00:19:00.958 --> 00:19:02.318
upset, dad's going to kill me?

00:19:02.578 --> 00:19:05.118
Yeah, four times now?

00:19:05.478 --> 00:19:08.338
What was it? All engine related. Okay.

00:19:09.318 --> 00:19:12.478
And all four of them were engines I blew up.

00:19:14.118 --> 00:19:18.318
The very first one was a Mazda Tribute my mom used to drive.

00:19:18.718 --> 00:19:26.278
And to be fair, that engine was already on its way out. It got low on oil and oil starvation.

00:19:26.578 --> 00:19:29.958
And it started rod knocking. So we're like, okay, crap. We parked it.

00:19:30.378 --> 00:19:34.478
And we left it up at our shop, our storage facility shop.

00:19:35.018 --> 00:19:37.698
And we had it inside and we wanted to move it outside.

00:19:38.338 --> 00:19:40.138
So we fired it up. I pulled it around.

00:19:40.938 --> 00:19:47.738
And as soon as that went to part and the engine jumped a little bit in RPMs, it went, yeah, clunk.

00:19:48.458 --> 00:19:53.598
And it threw a rod through the bottom of the pan. And I was like, oh, crap.

00:19:53.858 --> 00:19:57.358
I just blew up completely the engine. I mean, it was already bad.

00:19:57.538 --> 00:20:01.358
It had a horrible rod knock. But now it's stuck there.

00:20:02.798 --> 00:20:05.778
And it hasn't moved since. It's still sitting in the same spot.

00:20:06.540 --> 00:20:11.200
Second one, an engine that we had in the bus for about 12 years,

00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:16.740
and I always felt kind of bad, although I also, it really, I don't think it

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:20.300
was my fault, but I felt bad because we went on a trip to Biloxi, Mississippi.

00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:24.360
It was a four-hour drive, one way, so eight hours total.

00:20:24.760 --> 00:20:28.700
And we went in the bus, and another, we had our backup vehicle in case anything

00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:31.060
happened, and so everyone had a comfy seat.

00:20:31.060 --> 00:20:33.900
And I drove the whole way there and

00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:36.620
we're doing 65 70 on the interstates in

00:20:36.620 --> 00:20:40.080
the bus and it was perfectly capable well

00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:43.220
we got back weekend was perfectly

00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:45.940
successful went flawlessly we get

00:20:45.940 --> 00:20:48.540
back and dad goes to drive it

00:20:48.540 --> 00:20:51.960
to work on Monday and he leaves for about two

00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.780
minutes and comes back and it has a horrible rod

00:20:54.780 --> 00:20:57.640
knock oh and so I'm

00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.520
like oh crap you know I blew up the engine in the bus because

00:21:00.520 --> 00:21:03.880
i was the last one to drive it come to find out something

00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.780
fell into one of the cylinders and i

00:21:06.780 --> 00:21:09.740
don't know what it was but something fell

00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:12.380
i think from the carburetor fell into one of the

00:21:12.380 --> 00:21:15.140
cylinders and it was just slamming up against the head

00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:17.960
and the piston so actually the long the bottom end still

00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:20.700
good on that one i i'm gonna probably build it

00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:23.500
and put it back in the bus eventually with a

00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:27.100
little bit popped up performance and

00:21:27.100 --> 00:21:30.040
then the engine after that was an engine it was the first engine

00:21:30.040 --> 00:21:34.700
air-cooled engine i rebuilt myself it was one we had lying around that needed

00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:41.980
to freshen up i split the case i put engel w100 cam in it i put 87 millimeter

00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:49.460
pistons bumped it up to a 1641 and a dual barrel weber and that was a sweet little engine.

00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:56.560
But the heads that we used were used they were used heads i've put the first

00:21:56.560 --> 00:22:01.420
set that engine was running fine until the generator went out.

00:22:01.820 --> 00:22:04.860
I had to replace the generator with the engine still in the bus.

00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.520
I didn't want to take the engine out. That was my downfall.

00:22:08.386 --> 00:22:14.686
Because you have to take the intake manifold off to do it to get enough so the generator can come,

00:22:15.206 --> 00:22:18.446
straight backwards and i took

00:22:18.446 --> 00:22:21.266
a hose clamp off of the carburetor and set it

00:22:21.266 --> 00:22:25.706
on the little pedestal on these bay buses there's a pedestal where the oil bath

00:22:25.706 --> 00:22:29.786
air filter would go well we don't have that oil bath in it anymore so it's a

00:22:29.786 --> 00:22:34.086
great little spot to store all your nuts and screws and hardware and I put the

00:22:34.086 --> 00:22:39.746
hose clamp on that pedestal and it sits right above the heads on the passenger side.

00:22:40.866 --> 00:22:47.206
Apparently, while it was apart, I had knocked that hose clamp into the intake

00:22:47.206 --> 00:22:49.106
of the head and I didn't see it.

00:22:49.206 --> 00:22:53.806
And I put the engine back together and I went, huh, where did that hose clamp go?

00:22:54.006 --> 00:22:56.686
And it never dawned on me, maybe it could have been inside the engine.

00:22:56.786 --> 00:22:58.986
I thought it fell on the ground and I just never found it.

00:22:59.406 --> 00:23:05.226
And it worked its way through and it ruined that set of heads and that piston.

00:23:05.626 --> 00:23:11.166
Now, I was able to find another set of heads and another piston,

00:23:11.306 --> 00:23:13.506
just one piston, and put it back together.

00:23:13.786 --> 00:23:17.666
Then what happened is, on that set of heads, which was also a used set,

00:23:17.746 --> 00:23:23.286
should have learned from my first time, but used set of heads again, number two?

00:23:24.006 --> 00:23:26.266
Number two exhaust valve, the

00:23:26.266 --> 00:23:32.066
whole head of the valve broke off and went flummeting into the cylinder.

00:23:32.306 --> 00:23:37.286
And this one was catastrophic failure. It completely exploded the piston.

00:23:37.686 --> 00:23:44.026
And chunks of piston shot back into the case with such velocity that it poked

00:23:44.026 --> 00:23:45.426
a hole through the top of the block.

00:23:45.586 --> 00:23:51.146
It was crazy. I have the powdery debris left from that piston.

00:23:52.366 --> 00:23:56.906
And actually, I took what was left of it and the bent connecting rod and bent

00:23:56.906 --> 00:24:02.706
push rod and made a best of engine trophy for our Tannehill show out of it.

00:24:03.026 --> 00:24:06.726
That's kind of like a freaking grenade going off. It genuinely was.

00:24:07.166 --> 00:24:11.906
And it was so, what's hilarious is the rod bearing and the crank are perfect.

00:24:12.086 --> 00:24:13.866
I still have it. They're perfect.

00:24:14.326 --> 00:24:18.526
So it wasn't, I thought it chunked a rod. No, it completely disintegrated a piston.

00:24:19.446 --> 00:24:26.926
And all the chunks broke pieces inside of the block. So that one was total catastrophic engine failure.

00:24:27.126 --> 00:24:29.166
Thankfully, my angle cam was okay, though.

00:24:29.746 --> 00:24:36.006
And then the engine I put in after that was a Type 3 engine that I converted to a Type 1 setup.

00:24:36.066 --> 00:24:42.126
That one didn't blow up, but I was driving it, and I felt it lost power.

00:24:42.146 --> 00:24:46.266
I pulled over, saw that Cylinder 3 was completely dead.

00:24:46.466 --> 00:24:49.786
There was no ignition or no power from Cylinder 3.

00:24:49.786 --> 00:24:54.726
So pulled the engine took it apart found out a chunk of the exhaust valve broke

00:24:54.726 --> 00:24:59.446
off but just went through the exhaust and it had zero compression so those heads

00:24:59.446 --> 00:25:06.826
are rebuildable and reusable but again I was driving an engine I put together and it blew up laughing.

00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:14.360
If anything, at least you might have learned something from any of these times.

00:25:14.800 --> 00:25:18.340
And that's the real beauty in it. As long as you're learning,

00:25:18.540 --> 00:25:20.500
you're not really ever making mistakes, right?

00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.380
Well, I've learned that just rebuild the damn heads.

00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:28.820
I've been the death of these engines every single time as the heads.

00:25:29.080 --> 00:25:31.020
That's a good lesson, though.

00:25:31.520 --> 00:25:37.000
Yeah. So let's talk about this first Beetle that you, I guess,

00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:39.660
first chose as a project car, right? Yeah.

00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:43.780
Tell me what year. Tell me about the car.

00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:49.220
It's the same red 65 Beetle that I mentioned earlier, my earlier memories.

00:25:50.140 --> 00:25:57.620
It was parked around 2011 due to engine that was worn out to the point of the

00:25:57.620 --> 00:25:59.600
crank shaft had a ton of slop in it.

00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:03.100
And the transmission went out. and so it needed

00:26:03.100 --> 00:26:06.120
an engine and a transmission and we got a

00:26:06.120 --> 00:26:09.240
parts car i remember that was another one of my earlier memories

00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:14.380
we bought a parts car with a good transmission or given to us that's right yeah

00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:18.200
given to us but we never found an engine for it and we never got around putting

00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.340
the transmission in it so it's sad and it was always a we're gonna get to it

00:26:22.340 --> 00:26:26.340
we're gonna get to it and we never did But around 2020,

00:26:26.860 --> 00:26:34.080
when I turned 15, I was like, okay, for my 16th birthday, when I do my license,

00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:37.020
this is also early 2020, before COVID.

00:26:37.320 --> 00:26:41.660
When I get my license, I want to take my test in that Beetle.

00:26:42.300 --> 00:26:48.720
And so I bought all the brake parts. I bought whatever electrical wiring stuff I needed.

00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:54.100
And I put the transmission in from that other Beetle that we acquired.

00:26:54.300 --> 00:26:58.120
New bushings, rebuilt the front end because the front end was completely worn out.

00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:03.680
I also used the front end off of that parts Beetle. Had a almost brand new front end.

00:27:03.820 --> 00:27:07.260
Apparently, the owner said that they had gone through it right before that car

00:27:07.260 --> 00:27:08.940
was parked. So, I got lucky there.

00:27:09.540 --> 00:27:15.000
Brand new, fresh front end. On new brakes. And I was starting to do some sheet metal work.

00:27:16.420 --> 00:27:22.740
How old were you here? 15. How did you learn to do all this at 15?

00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:28.280
You're talking about replacing transmissions, brakes, the engine.

00:27:28.940 --> 00:27:31.380
I mean, dude, now you're doing metal work.

00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:37.200
It all goes back to the dad teaching me on the bus when we were a lot younger.

00:27:37.560 --> 00:27:41.640
I helped him replace the front beam and the rear transmission in the bus.

00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:44.720
Partial that, partial just looking through the books.

00:27:44.980 --> 00:27:50.580
But also on those rear ends, the transmissions are only held in with like 10 bolts.

00:27:51.517 --> 00:27:55.017
And the whole thing comes out. The front beam, I didn't replace the whole front

00:27:55.017 --> 00:27:58.417
beam because the beam that was in it isn't adjustable and it's lowered in the front.

00:27:58.857 --> 00:28:03.277
So I just took the trailing arms that go in the sides. I just slid them out

00:28:03.277 --> 00:28:05.797
and slid them into my beam that was already in the car.

00:28:06.077 --> 00:28:10.377
That one was easy because that was just those two nuts that hold them in.

00:28:10.497 --> 00:28:14.677
It sounds like a lot of work, but it genuinely was very straightforward and

00:28:14.677 --> 00:28:16.817
super simple. Super simple for some.

00:28:17.077 --> 00:28:21.357
A little bit for others. It's all good, though. It seemed like a daunting task,

00:28:21.517 --> 00:28:24.517
but once I got into it, I realized it's not bad.

00:28:24.797 --> 00:28:28.497
I, you know, whole front suspension I knocked out in a weekend.

00:28:28.857 --> 00:28:31.957
Rear end, I knocked out the transmission I knocked out in a week.

00:28:32.257 --> 00:28:35.197
That was right when COVID happened.

00:28:35.697 --> 00:28:42.377
So lockdown stuff and I was home, but also I was also homeschooled before homeschooled before COVID.

00:28:42.377 --> 00:28:48.677
I actually started my high school year, August 2019, at Alabama Connections

00:28:48.677 --> 00:28:53.177
Academy, which is an online public school, homeschool program.

00:28:53.797 --> 00:28:57.177
So I was doing the homeschool thing before it was cool, you know,

00:28:57.477 --> 00:29:01.157
before COVID. So I was always home. So I had all my afternoons.

00:29:01.537 --> 00:29:05.017
You know, I'd get done at noon, one o'clock in the afternoon.

00:29:05.037 --> 00:29:06.837
So I'd go outside, work on the beetle.

00:29:07.077 --> 00:29:14.837
So I was able to knock out a lot. And what ceased the project was it took forever

00:29:14.837 --> 00:29:16.417
for my battery tray to come in.

00:29:16.597 --> 00:29:19.017
So there's a big gaping hole in the floor.

00:29:20.077 --> 00:29:24.737
And the engine I had built or put together, I can't say built.

00:29:24.877 --> 00:29:28.457
It was all conglomeration of used parts with only new gaskets.

00:29:28.617 --> 00:29:35.417
Turns out it had a spun rod bearing that I only noticed until after I had put

00:29:35.417 --> 00:29:36.277
the whole engine together.

00:29:36.277 --> 00:29:40.237
What happened there was, I had gotten to the part, I had the entire engine put

00:29:40.237 --> 00:29:43.437
together, and I got to the part where I'm putting spark plugs in,

00:29:43.577 --> 00:29:45.257
and the heads are stripped out.

00:29:45.397 --> 00:29:49.417
So I'm like, great, gotta take the engine all the way back apart, and find new heads.

00:29:49.917 --> 00:29:53.777
And when I did, I pulled the cylinders off, because I was like,

00:29:53.877 --> 00:29:56.137
well, if I'm gonna do new heads, I might as well do new rings.

00:29:56.457 --> 00:30:00.917
And I found two things, actually. One, half of the piston on cylinder three

00:30:00.917 --> 00:30:03.797
was missing, like, the whole bottom end of the skirt was gone.

00:30:03.797 --> 00:30:07.897
The face of it was fine, but the skirt was busted.

00:30:08.137 --> 00:30:13.617
I had to find another piston, and while doing that, with the piston off, I could see the crank.

00:30:14.397 --> 00:30:18.757
And I noticed that the rod bearing was all messed up, and it was seized,

00:30:18.937 --> 00:30:21.457
actually, a little bit. You could feel it was really tight.

00:30:21.717 --> 00:30:25.177
That was the end of that. I didn't have an engine. Since found an engine,

00:30:25.297 --> 00:30:29.217
which is actually in the bus right now, a junkyard engine, I got for $75.

00:30:29.977 --> 00:30:36.697
Unseized it, got it running. Nice. And once I finish rebuilding a full-fledged

00:30:36.697 --> 00:30:38.437
actual proper rebuild this time.

00:30:39.301 --> 00:30:41.881
The new bus engine, this engine is going to go in that Beetle.

00:30:42.001 --> 00:30:44.701
So it'll be running again soon. I hope so, yeah.

00:30:44.941 --> 00:30:47.901
As long as life doesn't get in the way. That's the plan.

00:30:48.681 --> 00:30:53.841
Good stuff. So your dad, when you were growing up, he was heavily into the scene.

00:30:53.841 --> 00:30:59.201
As he told us on his episode, he used to bring you to a lot of BW shows and

00:30:59.201 --> 00:31:02.941
some of the meets. What did that mean to you growing up?

00:31:03.441 --> 00:31:07.621
A lot of people say it would mean a lot, but to me it was just kind of normal.

00:31:07.621 --> 00:31:12.301
You know because we always went it was i would go to the club meetings when

00:31:12.301 --> 00:31:16.861
there used to be a club here in birmingham or in birmingham not here i'd go

00:31:16.861 --> 00:31:21.441
to the shows with them so it was just you know typical saturday for me but uh

00:31:21.441 --> 00:31:24.081
i did still enjoy them and i love going all the time,

00:31:24.761 --> 00:31:30.101
and it was more of just a good chance for me to look at the cars and just again

00:31:30.101 --> 00:31:34.081
figure out how they go together the mechanical mind you know yeah so i can tell

00:31:34.081 --> 00:31:37.341
you right now that's definitely not anything that I ever wondered.

00:31:38.901 --> 00:31:43.441
Not how they go together. I might have wondered a lot of other things, but not that.

00:31:43.581 --> 00:31:46.201
And that's okay, though. But going back to your childhood, though,

00:31:47.001 --> 00:31:50.601
when you think about being young and going to some of these shows,

00:31:50.721 --> 00:31:56.621
what are some of your favorite memories that you have from growing up in this? There's quite a few.

00:31:57.501 --> 00:32:00.961
Favorite ones have been cars that i've seen a

00:32:00.961 --> 00:32:04.561
lot of really cool cars i've always leaned towards older

00:32:04.561 --> 00:32:08.261
you know 50s and earlier beatles and

00:32:08.261 --> 00:32:11.661
buses and all original beatles and

00:32:11.661 --> 00:32:14.401
buses i always thought that was so cool because it's the closest you'll ever

00:32:14.401 --> 00:32:21.561
get to seeing one brand new i remember on two occasions well we had one barn

00:32:21.561 --> 00:32:27.101
door bus come to our tannahill show and i thought that was amazing because it

00:32:27.101 --> 00:32:31.621
was the first time and only time I've ever seen a barn door bus in person.

00:32:31.921 --> 00:32:36.361
And it drove there. It wasn't trailered. It was patinaed. The guy drove it there.

00:32:36.841 --> 00:32:42.841
And the same thing for a 50 or 51 Split Beetle. All original.

00:32:43.261 --> 00:32:46.241
Really, really nice car. He drove it there, too.

00:32:46.541 --> 00:32:49.881
You know, he did a trailer and he drove it. And it was just so cool because

00:32:49.881 --> 00:32:52.421
it was the closest you could ever get to.

00:32:53.263 --> 00:32:57.543
Looking at one brand new, you know, at this point, what, a 70-year-old Beetle?

00:32:58.143 --> 00:33:01.403
Crazy. Yeah, yeah, about a 70-year-old Beetle.

00:33:01.503 --> 00:33:04.463
You got to witness a lot, you know, especially, like I said,

00:33:04.563 --> 00:33:08.143
growing up, you know, in this scene, going to shows and stuff.

00:33:08.663 --> 00:33:15.443
Give me your take on the VW culture as a whole. Why is it different from other car scenes?

00:33:15.743 --> 00:33:20.703
You're young and you're into other cars, not just VW, so you can certainly speak

00:33:20.703 --> 00:33:24.723
on this. Why is the VW culture different than other car scenes?

00:33:25.083 --> 00:33:30.803
I think main thing is, is that they're all so similar that everyone can relate.

00:33:31.003 --> 00:33:34.223
You know, they're all air-cooled, flat-cooled. And, you know,

00:33:34.323 --> 00:33:35.683
you got the water-cooled scenes too.

00:33:35.943 --> 00:33:39.663
All the same engines, same drivetrain. They all look the same.

00:33:39.663 --> 00:33:40.703
You can paint them different.

00:33:41.083 --> 00:33:47.023
But, you know, they're all so similar. Everyone can relate and appreciate each other's car.

00:33:47.023 --> 00:33:50.123
You know if you go to some of our American

00:33:50.123 --> 00:33:53.203
car scenes you'll have all these crazy

00:33:53.203 --> 00:33:56.223
different engines and all these people doing crazy

00:33:56.223 --> 00:33:59.563
builds and there's plenty of people doing them with Volkswagens too and

00:33:59.563 --> 00:34:04.203
all these people think you know I have a better engine or a bigger engine I'm

00:34:04.203 --> 00:34:07.883
better than you and so you know with the air cooled the biggest I've ever seen

00:34:07.883 --> 00:34:13.963
is 2.0 liters okay you're working with 80 horsepower yeah it's faster than what

00:34:13.963 --> 00:34:16.623
it was but you're not winning any races by any.

00:34:17.223 --> 00:34:19.063
You know, against anything else, really.

00:34:19.283 --> 00:34:23.483
So they're all everyone can appreciate it because they're all you know, everyone can relate.

00:34:23.983 --> 00:34:29.103
Everyone can relate. They can recognize, you know, each other,

00:34:29.203 --> 00:34:31.903
you know, if that's the right term or what am I trying to say here?

00:34:32.748 --> 00:34:38.308
Just mainly they can relate. They're all and appreciate each other because they're all very similar.

00:34:38.988 --> 00:34:43.568
Yeah, I think that's a good point. Now, being a young man, being into this scene,

00:34:43.948 --> 00:34:47.828
there's not a lot, you know, especially like we get excited.

00:34:48.128 --> 00:34:53.628
You know, I'm almost 50 when we go to shows or have shows and we see young people coming in.

00:34:53.768 --> 00:34:58.788
We're like, yeah, you know, we're excited. Do you think that younger enthusiasts

00:34:58.788 --> 00:35:02.848
are engaged enough to keep this culture alive?

00:35:03.428 --> 00:35:09.928
I think there's a good select few that are definitely diehard VW fans,

00:35:10.148 --> 00:35:12.648
and there are enough of them to keep it going.

00:35:13.148 --> 00:35:17.448
Probably not as much right now, but there probably will be more later.

00:35:17.848 --> 00:35:23.268
There's probably, I mean, there's definitely VW people that have probably yet to be born yet.

00:35:24.148 --> 00:35:25.708
True, for sure.

00:35:26.768 --> 00:35:31.048
You know, as long as we just all do our part to keep it alive, you know?

00:35:31.588 --> 00:35:34.648
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good point, you know, and that,

00:35:34.648 --> 00:35:40.988
that includes, I think, being welcoming, you know, to this, to this younger

00:35:40.988 --> 00:35:44.968
generation that, that, that's coming in, you know, they're going to want to make some changes.

00:35:44.968 --> 00:35:50.728
They're going to want to see the improvements and the efficiencies of modern culture.

00:35:51.168 --> 00:35:57.408
We have to be open to that. But aside from that, you know, I think I like what you said.

00:35:57.608 --> 00:36:00.888
I think you're right. As long as we're doing what we got to do,

00:36:01.048 --> 00:36:05.908
the culture can continue to survive, if not even thrive.

00:36:06.488 --> 00:36:12.028
So let's shift gears just a little bit. I want to talk about your personal Jetta

00:36:12.028 --> 00:36:14.468
that you got behind you. That's an 83, correct?

00:36:15.108 --> 00:36:19.068
Yes, sir. 83. Yep. Tell me a little bit about my own money.

00:36:19.808 --> 00:36:23.008
Awesome. Congratulations. Tell me a little bit about this one,

00:36:23.488 --> 00:36:28.648
and is it rare to find an 83 in the condition this one's in?

00:36:28.788 --> 00:36:29.988
Give me a little bit of the backstory.

00:36:30.668 --> 00:36:36.388
Most definitely. It is probably single-handedly the cleanest, most original, most...

00:36:37.348 --> 00:36:43.168
Unmolested Mark 1 water-cooled Volkswagen you could find, especially a Jetta.

00:36:43.608 --> 00:36:47.288
Jettas already in the Mark 1 era are super rare because they only made them

00:36:47.288 --> 00:36:56.108
for four years, compared to a Mark 1 Rabbit, which they made from, what was that, 74 to 84?

00:36:58.188 --> 00:37:02.788
So you have a decade of Mark 1 Rabbits, but only four years of Jettas.

00:37:02.928 --> 00:37:05.868
So finding a Jetta, especially one this nice, definitely rare.

00:37:05.868 --> 00:37:10.528
There's zero rust in this whole car All original upholstery with no rips or tears,

00:37:11.328 --> 00:37:18.148
All original Drive train With 400,000 miles on it too And it really is The guy

00:37:18.148 --> 00:37:22.848
drove it from Florida To Tennessee and I think Florida, Tennessee,

00:37:23.068 --> 00:37:26.608
I think he was in the Dakotas, he drove it to the Dakotas I remember seeing

00:37:26.608 --> 00:37:28.528
something about the Dakotas And my paperwork,

00:37:29.948 --> 00:37:35.768
So he definitely drove it I have right here actually One of the neatest little

00:37:35.768 --> 00:37:41.468
find a corncob pipe that I found in the glove box from Missouri.

00:37:42.928 --> 00:37:46.488
Dude, look at that. I mean, he drove it all over the country.

00:37:47.584 --> 00:37:52.524
But he kept such good. That's cool. Cool little artifact that you have to keep

00:37:52.524 --> 00:37:55.364
that. I think we heard about that on your dad's episode.

00:37:55.924 --> 00:37:59.664
Yeah. I remember mentioning it, but I thought I'd show it off here since I haven't.

00:38:00.104 --> 00:38:02.204
Awesome. I have all the original paperwork, too.

00:38:02.644 --> 00:38:08.444
Oh, nice. The original warranties and the warranty manual, the owner's manual,

00:38:09.404 --> 00:38:10.684
all the original paperwork.

00:38:10.904 --> 00:38:13.624
What's the plan? And the original title and bill of sale.

00:38:14.264 --> 00:38:19.224
Amazing. You got a gem for sure. What's the plan for it? What are you going to do?

00:38:19.504 --> 00:38:25.024
I want to fix it and drive it. I just want to put another $400,000 on it and

00:38:25.024 --> 00:38:30.184
have probably the highest mileage Jetta in North America. You're going to keep it stock?

00:38:30.884 --> 00:38:34.684
Definitely. Unless if the engine blows up, then I'll probably put a 1.8,

00:38:34.884 --> 00:38:39.664
slightly modified, kind of like a GTI engine, maybe a little more.

00:38:41.404 --> 00:38:44.364
But I don't want to take too much from its originality.

00:38:45.424 --> 00:38:49.444
It's survived this long. Who am I to change it now?

00:38:49.624 --> 00:38:54.764
Now, you said in the beginning of the podcast that I think the plan here is

00:38:54.764 --> 00:38:57.684
to debut this car at Volksjam, right?

00:38:57.904 --> 00:39:01.764
Yes. I'm working on it right now. I just finished mine. What is it?

00:39:01.864 --> 00:39:05.164
About $1,000 worth of parts. Wow.

00:39:05.584 --> 00:39:10.424
To go into it. It's all new fuel system, all new brakes, what little wiring

00:39:10.424 --> 00:39:14.184
I need to do, whatnot, but it's brand new everything. Very nice.

00:39:14.704 --> 00:39:18.944
I'm planning on just getting it daily drivable. What would be a dream build

00:39:18.944 --> 00:39:21.384
for you if you had all the time and all the money?

00:39:21.804 --> 00:39:25.984
All the time and all the money? For the Jetta or just period? Period.

00:39:26.404 --> 00:39:29.604
I would probably have to have 20 different Volkswagens to do all of it.

00:39:29.904 --> 00:39:38.704
But number one, probably be some sort of really neat 50s bus logo panel or just a logo 11 window.

00:39:39.384 --> 00:39:43.504
I've always loved logo buses, especially panels. But I can still,

00:39:43.644 --> 00:39:45.684
I really love just any logo bus, period.

00:39:45.984 --> 00:39:48.544
I would love to find an original, you know, one of those.

00:39:48.864 --> 00:39:53.524
You find it in a junkyard and you just barely make out what it says on the side of it.

00:39:53.744 --> 00:39:57.484
And, you know, you get it, you clean it, you bring it back, make them more legible.

00:39:57.864 --> 00:39:59.284
Something like that. I love patinas.

00:39:59.744 --> 00:40:04.444
So keep it patina. That would probably be a dream bus.

00:40:04.864 --> 00:40:10.124
A dream beetle is similar. just a really nice all original beetle water cooled

00:40:10.124 --> 00:40:13.824
because i do love the water cooled too and i would definitely have to have one

00:40:13.824 --> 00:40:19.924
with like this jetta if i ever had my way with it and i didn't have as much

00:40:19.924 --> 00:40:24.324
of a conscious conscience you know i would probably do.

00:40:25.024 --> 00:40:29.344
Hopped up gti two liter or something like that and make it like uh,

00:40:30.120 --> 00:40:33.880
A pretty fun little rocket, you know? Yeah, they're already fun.

00:40:34.240 --> 00:40:40.940
Oh, yeah. You know? But yeah, making it unsafely fast, that'd be pretty cool. Unsafely? Yeah.

00:40:42.100 --> 00:40:49.320
That'd be pretty cool. I got a question for you. And I know it's a whole lifetime for you.

00:40:49.340 --> 00:40:55.180
So I know when I say this word, deep, it really resonates differently with you.

00:40:55.180 --> 00:41:00.620
But why do you think the VW scene connects people in such a deep way?

00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.540
I think because they were just so popular.

00:41:02.780 --> 00:41:06.340
Everyone has experience with them. Everyone has a story. Everyone's got a story.

00:41:06.580 --> 00:41:10.800
Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can, especially when you drive them and you go to

00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:15.380
a gas station, you always hear someone going, I had one in high school.

00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:16.960
I wish I had never sold it.

00:41:17.040 --> 00:41:20.000
My buddy had one in college. My parents had one.

00:41:20.460 --> 00:41:25.220
You always hear it. and it's everywhere

00:41:25.220 --> 00:41:28.260
anyone and everyone has a Volkswagen

00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:31.380
story so kids your age that

00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:36.860
are getting into classics you know now what advice would you give you know the

00:41:36.860 --> 00:41:42.500
late teen early 20 year old guy that you know might not be part of the dub scene

00:41:42.500 --> 00:41:46.860
right now but maybe looking to getting into it I would say if you get a project

00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:50.280
just try to get it running first don't try to make it perfect.

00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:54.260
I see a lot of people putting so much time and money into them that they.

00:41:55.065 --> 00:41:59.405
Will sit forever in the garage, and then they'll start to lose interest because

00:41:59.405 --> 00:42:01.905
they never get the joy of driving it.

00:42:02.165 --> 00:42:07.385
So just try to get it running, make it drivable, and then tinker with it along the way, you know.

00:42:07.605 --> 00:42:10.745
It might take a little longer, but you're going to enjoy it a lot more.

00:42:10.965 --> 00:42:14.425
I would say definitely, you know, be realistic.

00:42:14.905 --> 00:42:18.845
You're not going to find the perfect out there. They've all been beaten up.

00:42:19.025 --> 00:42:20.985
They've all been sitting in fields, rusting.

00:42:21.525 --> 00:42:24.865
Or if you find a nice one, you know, it's probably still going to have issues.

00:42:25.345 --> 00:42:28.885
They've all been dogged. So don't get your hopes too high.

00:42:29.045 --> 00:42:32.405
You know, a lot of people buy it and then it starts breaking down and they,

00:42:32.545 --> 00:42:34.565
you know, all this piece of crap. I don't want it.

00:42:34.965 --> 00:42:39.785
You know, understand that the cars are 40, 50 or 30, you know,

00:42:39.865 --> 00:42:42.745
30, 40, 50 years old. A lot can happen, you know.

00:42:43.705 --> 00:42:47.885
So, yeah, be patient. You know, again, just the patience. Be patient.

00:42:48.525 --> 00:42:51.865
Give it the love that it deserves. Well said. Well said.

00:42:52.405 --> 00:42:57.525
All right. I got some rapid fire questions. These are questions that demand a fast response.

00:42:58.065 --> 00:43:01.625
So I'm going to roll through these questions real quick. You ready for them? Yes, sir.

00:43:02.245 --> 00:43:06.525
All right. Out of all the VWs that you have at the house or at the shop,

00:43:06.565 --> 00:43:09.425
what's the first one that you'd save in a fire?

00:43:09.685 --> 00:43:14.025
The bus, Heinz, just because that's what I grew up in, literally.

00:43:15.285 --> 00:43:19.825
And if not that one, the 63 Ragtop Beetle that we have.

00:43:19.825 --> 00:43:26.725
Two awesome cars and also two that you have intense memories with throughout

00:43:26.725 --> 00:43:31.105
your life, which is pretty awesome. All right, Dream Road Trip.

00:43:31.705 --> 00:43:36.545
Any VW, where are you going and what dub are you taking?

00:43:37.085 --> 00:43:42.245
Dream Road Trip, it would be a bus just because the room and you can sleep in

00:43:42.245 --> 00:43:44.365
it. I've actually been talking about doing it.

00:43:44.585 --> 00:43:49.625
No particular place. I want to be blindfolded and throw a dart at a map and then just go there.

00:43:50.420 --> 00:43:55.300
That's a cool, cool statement. So I had an entrepreneurial type dude that I

00:43:55.300 --> 00:44:02.960
worked around about 2015-ish, and he started an HVAC company that same way. Really?

00:44:03.300 --> 00:44:08.840
Yep. He got blindfolded and he threw a dart at the map and it landed on a little

00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:13.460
town that you're going to be familiar with when I say it, Millbrook, Alabama.

00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:19.500
Really? Yes, sir. And he came and he started Air Now in Millbrook. They're still there.

00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:25.220
Yeah. Yeah, I've heard of them, yeah. They served the whole River Region area there, Prattville.

00:44:25.540 --> 00:44:30.800
That whole area right there was... Yeah, that's only 40 minutes from me.

00:44:31.020 --> 00:44:35.500
Yeah, I actually lived there myself about five years. I owned a house in Millbrook.

00:44:35.900 --> 00:44:39.620
So, yeah, good stuff. All right, back to this. So, back to this.

00:44:40.080 --> 00:44:44.860
Most overrated VW model of all time. Overrated.

00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.900
Overrated? Yeah. I think just because you see them so much and some of the people

00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:55.700
that are into them can kind of be a little not the most pleasant, I'd say.